Updating hardware and also need a good back up solution

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DocBrian
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Updating hardware and also need a good back up solution

Post by DocBrian » Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:11 pm

I am a long time Open Dental user. I also use XDR software for my x-rays. I am in need of a hardware upgrade. I presently have an older Dell server (Power Edge 830) and 4 GX620 workstations running Windows Server 2003 and Windows XP. I am looking to upgrade to a new server and add one workstation at the front desk, and then upgrade the other stations over the next year. I also wanted a secure back up system, as the one I had just failed and I am backing up to Crash Plan for the moment. I'm not really that tech savvy, so I reached out to a local computer business that does work for a colleague. They gave me a $17,000 dollar quote for a new server, one workstation, and an online mirror server solution for the back up. The back up was going to cost $3000 up front plus $300 a month. They quoted me a Dell PE T420 server for $4500 and a Dell Optiplex 7010 MT workstation for $1500. I had not been expecting such high quotes for a fairly simple server upgrade and additional workstation and back up. Any ideas for less costly solutions? I am in NJ if anyone has a good computer tech they can recommend!

teethdood
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Re: Updating hardware and also need a good back up solution

Post by teethdood » Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:37 pm

WOW
$17K eh? For that amount, I'll fly to Atlantic City, spend $16K, then use the other $1K to set you up and you would still be much more secure with multiple backup solutions. You don't even have to spend $300/month.

Here's what you need to do: spend one day searching/reading the forums on here for how to setup a virtual server. We're here to help if you run into issues, but you need to do this yourself. You will learn so much by doing it.
How can I possibly do this for $1000 you ask? Let me break it down for you.

SERVER: $400 for a Dell Inspiron computer. i5 processor, 8GB RAM, 1TB hard drive.
Workstation: $300-$400 any computer will do
External Hard Drive: $140 from Costco. Your backup solution. Much faster than any online solutions. But if you want online, most of the services are also free, or you can provide your own services.
A copy of windows 7: $100

Again, read the posts on virtual server. Why anyone needs to spend $4500 for a dental server is beyond me. $1500 for a workstation? wow. I need to be in the IT business. Dentistry is too friggin hard.
Philip H. Doan, DDS
http://www.kaweahdental.com/

DocBrian
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Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:31 pm

Re: Updating hardware and also need a good back up solution

Post by DocBrian » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:44 am

Thanks, I will look into the virtual server. And thanks for confirming that this quote was way too high. I've already gotten a quote from another IT company for a virtual mirror of the server as a back up option that is much less than 1/2 his quote. But your solution sounds even better, so it is time to do some research.

JLM
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:52 pm

Re: Updating hardware and also need a good back up solution

Post by JLM » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:06 am

A couple of notes from someone who just upgraded their server.

1) SERVER 2012 IS THE DEVIL!
STAY WITH 2003!

BTW I will sell you my copy of server 2012 essentials if you choose not to take my advice. I just erased it from my server today.

I went from server 2000 to 2012 because I can't install server 2000 on modern hardware and my celeron server couldn't cut it anymore.

- Server 2012 uses SMB3 which is incompatible with ISAM databases like paradox, dbase and ctree.
I am switching to opendental from dentrix in a couple of months partly because dentrix barely runs on server 2012.
I have tried every combination of oplocks and smb settings I could google and nothing works for all three mission critical programs that I currently use.

Copying a 15GB file to a windows 2000 virtual machine is twice as fast as copying that file to a 2012 server running on bare metal.

2) You need to put your server(s) in something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-SRW9U- ... Lite+SRW9U

If someone walks off with you server, you have to report it. It's a $100K fine and the people who investigate the data loss are funded by your fine. They have every incentive to take as much of your money as they can.

3) I agree with the previous poster about hardware. I have two custom built i3 computers that have mirrored 256G SSD's for servers. $600 each in hardware costs. They work fine with non 2012 software.

Jim Margarit DDS

bpcomp
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Re: Updating hardware and also need a good back up solution

Post by bpcomp » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:32 am

Server 2012 SMB is the devil. Rule of thumb for me is anything that is Small Business from Microsoft is something to avoid like the plague.

teethdood
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Re: Updating hardware and also need a good back up solution

Post by teethdood » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:38 pm

Reading Jim's post about the 100K fine if server is lost, I felt sick. Probably not as sick as when I have to tell all my patients that their info is compromised. Is this potential fine written somewhere? I will be putting my virtual server in a truecrypt file to prevent this.
Philip H. Doan, DDS
http://www.kaweahdental.com/

JLM
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Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:52 pm

Re: Updating hardware and also need a good back up solution

Post by JLM » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:41 pm

teethdood wrote:Reading Jim's post about the 100K fine if server is lost, I felt sick. Probably not as sick as when I have to tell all my patients that their info is compromised. Is this potential fine written somewhere? I will be putting my virtual server in a truecrypt file to prevent this.
I think I saw it in an insurance newsletter I get. There was a medical outfit that lost a laptop full of unencrypted medical info that got the $100K fine. They recommended securing servers in a cabinet or cage. The one I posted the link to is certified for protecting credit card info filled servers from physical theft and access to USB ports.

Every bit off offsite patient data that I have is in 256AES zip files or truecrypt files.

Jim

ericksonjustin
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Re: Updating hardware and also need a good back up solution

Post by ericksonjustin » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:28 pm

I'm an IT service provider and I thought I would throw in a professional opinion. Any OS with SBS in the name is not necessarily from the devil. SBS bundled server OS's are intended to bundle as much software together as possible at an affordable price for small businesses. Just like anything with when it comes to server technology, it takes some knowledge and experience to know what it is intended for and to operate it correctly. However, because SBS servers run much more than just a standard server os, they have much more workload than a standard server. Because of this, I don't recommend running Open Dental on anything other than Windows Server Standard 2008 R2. I personally wouldn't run it on 2012 just because I don't know for sure how well it runs on 2012. My initial experience with 2012 is that software developers had a lot of catch up to make to make their software run properly on 2012. But perhaps by now it might be fine. (You can disable SMB3) I just don't know for sure. That doesn't mean I wouldn't recommend any SBS servers. It isn't a bad idea to have an SBS server also that is responsible for being the print server, dhcp server, domain controller, general file server, remote access server, and email server if you want that. That way your Open Dental runs much faster because it doesn't have any other priorities.

In any event, my main advice is that $17,000 does seem a little high depending on how robust of a system you want, but you have the right idea of getting professional help. Yes, I'm IT service provider, so of course I'm going to have that perspective, but my grandpa was a dentist and he always said "I'm a really good typist and I can type almost 80 words per minute, but I still hire a secretary." The labor and time involved with installing a server is expensive whether an IT service provider does it, or if you do you it. Your time is valuable and it is going to take you 4 to 10 times as long to do it, and it won't be as well done. Yes, you could get any old computer and install a server OS on it and run Open Dental. That isn't an IT secret and servers aren't just a ploy to make people spend more money on IT. Do you go cheap on your dental equipment? You could use a dremel tool on people's teeth. Do you really realize how important Open Dental is to your practice? If Open Dental goes down for 2 hours, is it a big deal? The main difference between a server and your desktop is reliability. Servers are thoroughly tested to be stable but most of all they are designed with redundancies. Hard drives and power supplies go bad all of the time on computers with high 24 X 7 demands and most servers are designed to not even skip a beat if a power supply or hard drive go out. I would say in the life span of 5 years, 1 out of 3 servers have at least one hard drive or power supply go bad. So just keep that in mind. Open Dental is the epicenter of your practice and you should treat it accordingly.

You could definitely go cheaper than $17,000 though. Visualization is a good idea, especially if you want to have Open Dental run on a dedicated virtual server. A common cheap recommendation for 15 to 30 computers - PowerEdge 320 or 420 with two Raid 1's. One Raid 1 running a virtual server running SBS 2011 and the other RAID 1 running a virtual server with Windows 2008 R2 Standard that is dedicated to Open Dental and imaging software. Then for backup you could go as simple as just using windows native backup and rotate external $150 usb hard drive physically offsite. With labor and everything, I could see that costing about 10-12K, maybe less or more depending how much of a mess the IT service provider has to cleanup to get everything implemented. That would give you a pretty rock solid network environment from beginning to end with your own email server and remote access. And it could be a network that the computer company could easily maintain to be reliable down the road so you don't have to worry about it. You could get even cheaper options than that if you don't get SBS, it is just a matter of how robust of a system you want, but more than likely the most expensive thing will be the labor. I would just ask them for cheaper options and maybe ask another computer company. Really though, is it not worth spending 17K on the epicenter of your practice? Your building could burn down but you could still see patients if you could find another clinic to see them in. But if you lose Open Dental, you are pretty dead in the water. That is why people invest in servers and good backup. Just don't spend 17K on bad service. That's the worst, and don't try to do anything on your own unless you enjoy doing it and don't mind the many challenges you will face and have the spare time and are fine with the small risk of something going bad when you are not available.

teethdood
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Re: Updating hardware and also need a good back up solution

Post by teethdood » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:45 pm

Ericksonjustin brings up many great points from an IT point-of-view. Not many dentists have the know-how to provide their own IT. If a dentist feels that he/she is not up for it, then he or she should definitely hire a professional IT company. However having seen many IT installs costing thousands initially, then monthly support plan or very costly per-visit charge to fix simple things that only the IT guy who set it up knows, I would advise dentists to DIY. I would go so far as to say that most IT companies don't know the needs of a dental practice. No offense to you Justin, but I will take your post as an example: a typical dental practice will not have a need for a dedicated email server. As a matter of fact even if a small business had an email server before, more than likely they ditched it for offerings from google or godaddy. Does the 50 emails a dental office get a day warrant an email server? Forward the MX to gmail (search posts on this forum for that) and be done with it. Also a typical dental office does not have 15-30 users. It is more like ~5 ops with 1 frontdesk.

I tried to be cute before and forked out the money for windows server 2008R2 to do Active Directory etc. I regret doing that. If you only have less than 10 computers, who cares about group policy, push updates, etc. It doesn't take that long to set it up for 10 computers individually vs the complexity of setting up a domain controller. If I get hit by a bus tomorrow, I want to die knowing another dentist can just jump straight in and take care of my patients without having to worry about what the heck a domain controller is. KISS concept, stick with what you know - win7. We're small businesses, not medium or large corp with a dedicated IT department. Come to think of it, I do have an IT deparment in my dental office - me.

Since this is a forum where most of us believe in non-proprietary open goodness, we should not be locked in to anyone's way of setting up a computer network. If Open Dental goes down, how long do you think it would take your IT guy to come out and fix it for you? You definitely don't need any beefy $1000+ server. I wouldn't call an i5 with 8GB of RAM for $400 a crappy computer. As far as reliability, you're going to be replacing your server in a few years time anyhow. If my server dies tomorrow, I will go to costco and grab another computer, plug in my usb hard drive with my virtual server and boot that sucker up in 5 minutes straight from the usb hard drive. Yes it takes time to learn how to do this, but it isn't hard. A dentist learned how to extract a tooth, a dentist certainly can do this. It's not about the $17K in the long run, it is about you taking and maintaining control and not be at the mercy of anyone. Not unlike Jordan getting fed up with Dentrix so he did his own little thing called Open Dental.
Philip H. Doan, DDS
http://www.kaweahdental.com/

bpcomp
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Re: Updating hardware and also need a good back up solution

Post by bpcomp » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:52 am

I have the odd position of having been on both sides of this discussion. I worked for an IT company that serviced dental offices almost exclusively. I now work at a dental office but not in the IT capacity. I've seen the gamut from very IT savvy Dr's to the ones who didn't know how to turn on their own computer. I don't disagree with teethdood that if you can do it yourself, you can save a bundle. I would however advocate that if you do end up going with outside IT, you get a very good company who is probably not the cheapest.

If you are already making the expenditure to hire outside help, the extra money you spend on a great IT company vs a college kid out of the garage operation can make a world of difference in how smoothly your practice runs day to day and how they handle an emergency. If you have any propensity for IT and the drive to do it yourself, you can save your self thousands a year. If you don't then please don't just go with the cheapest quote. Go with the company recommended by other dentists who has a track record of stable offices and emergencies handled.

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