Open Dental on a MAC

[fishdrzig]

If anyone is running OD on a MAC, please let us know what computer configuration you are using to do this. Thank you

[stjames70]

I am using a MacPro to store the main OD database. We run XP Pro on all of our iMacs under VMWare Fusion. All computers are currently connected through an Airport Extreme Router.
Understand this, OD is very elegantly written, such that even really old Wintel boxes can run it. My 2008 MacPro is 16gb, 4Tb total storage space, dual quad core Xeons. I would get a MacPro strictly because of the Xeon chips. They are server grade -- designed so that they never need to be shut off -- truly, server grade. Our iMacs were the cheapest, fastest dual core chips I could get in 2008. They run VMWare fusion and OD flawlessly. Also I bought Remote Control from Apple so I could control, monitor all iMacs and legacy Dell boxes we have (by the way, I will never buy Dell again -- truly, junk). Let's say this set up is extremely smooth. Oh, and we also run Dexis.

[fishdrzig]

Thanks for the help
What exactly is VMware Fusion?
I only have Dells and Hp's so the MAC stuff is all new to me, but I would really like to learn

[fishdrzig]

Excuse my ignorance, but do you also need Windows 7 pro running on the MAC for OD or just use OSX ?

[stjames70]

Since Macs do not natively run Windows, you will need Fusion installed and a copy Windows 7 for each workstation.

The form factor and the ease of maintenance are the main reasons why I went with Macs instead of Wintel boxes.

I admit, I like MacOSX, and you could probably get away with WinTel all-in-one boxes for your office setup, so you will have to weigh your personal knowledge of computers against the need for someone to maintain your systems.

I personally maintain my network and all of our computers, so I don't have the need for an IT person. As a control freak, I needed a setup I could maintain and troubleshoot personally, and this was it. If you have any more specific questions feel free to email me. Good luck!

[sprange]

Since Macs do not natively run Windows, you will need Fusion installed and a copy Windows 7 for each workstation.

The form factor and the ease of maintenance are the main reasons why I went with Macs instead of Wintel boxes.

I admit, I like MacOSX, and you could probably get away with WinTel all-in-one boxes for your office setup, so you will have to weigh your personal knowledge of computers against the need for someone to maintain your systems.

I personally maintain my network and all of our computers, so I don't have the need for an IT person. As a control freak, I needed a setup I could maintain and troubleshoot personally, and this was it. If you have any more specific questions feel free to email me. Good luck!

Windows based PCs come in every form factor, including smaller footprints than Macs. Since you recognize that you'll likely need Windows 7 to run OD, don't you think using a virtual machine for every computer is going to increase complexity, not decrease it? I think the 'need for an IT person' theme is getting pretty old with modern Microsoft operating systems (excluding a domain server).

[stjames70]

Excellent point. Our operatories are 'open' -- the computers can be exposed to some airborne particles. I was able to get screen protectors from Photodon, keyboard covers which were cleansable, wipable, and slick, and the multi-touch mouse can actually be covered with sticky disposable film and still functional. Thus, I still think that the all-in-one iMac is the best form factor period.

Second point, Windows 7 adds complexity -- ok, let me dispell that notion for you quickly:

1) Once you have a 'master' copy of a Windows 7 machine (these will generally be under 16gb, so you can store a copy of your master in a thumb drive), all you have to do is to copy that 'master' copy into all your iMacs running VMWare fusion
2) The reason this is simpler, is that you don't have to install all your software again and again into multiple systems
3) Say one of your staff infects one of your workstations (God forbid they have access to your 'server') -- you can simply toss away your Virtual Machine in that workstation, and upload a clean, virus free 'master' and start anew in about the time it takes to copy a 16gb file

I don't know if you ever had the joy of wiping a hard drive clean and having to start up a system from scratch because of an infection. I have, and it is no joy. The computing world is moving into VMs (virtual machines) because they are hardware agnostic. You will have no problem running any versions of Windows in an iMac -- specially if you are running an efficient and tiny program like OD. In that vein, Windows 8 is smaller and more efficient than its predecessor so whatever Mac system you get now should have no problem running future versions of Windows.

What virtualization does is to sandbox a virtual operating system, preventing it from causing severe damage to your main OS and its associated hardware, specially its hard disks. I think that reason alone should be enough for you to run a virtualized environment. Again, you can do this on a Windows environment using one of VMWare's products or Citrix -- but Fusion is easily accessible, cheap, and it runs on a really stable OS (Mac OSX) which is UNIX based.

At the end of the day, I think you will have to weigh in your capital costs. To us, it was not significant because we bought our hardware from CDW, financed it through VAR resources, and ended up paying about $300/month for two years to outfit six operatories, and an extra iMac for the front desk. The cost included the cost for 11 site licenses for Windows 7. At the end of two years, we have the $1 buy-out option.

Obviously you were interested in Macs from the beginning, and I would urge you to continue on that path. If the aesthetics, form factor, and ease of set-up don't bother you, get Wintel boxes. My experience with our previous Dell Wintel boxes totally turned me off -- bad hardware, inconsistent connections to the server, and viral infections. Oh, why did you not run an antivirus program? Did you ever experience your computer slowing to a crawl or being difficult after installing one these antivirus programs? I have -- that is because they take a lot of resources in order to protect your computer. Not worth it in my mind. As I said, if these things get infected, I will just boot up a clean copy. If you are stupid enough to get your server infected, then I have no words for you.

[stjames70]

Should have include this in the last post:

Do you believe you get what you pay for? Well, I do. There's a good reason Apple hardware costs more, and it is not simply because it is prettier. It is because in general it is more reliable, elicits less complaints from its end users, and garners a great deal more customer satisfaction. Again, if the attributes of reliability and satisfaction don't matter to you, go for Wintel boxes -- they have never failed to disappoint me one way or another.

[irfan]

any new (or older intel) mac DOES run windows natively. Install through bootcamp, no Fusion/VMware needed.

Its a misconception that windows boxes are inherently virus/slowdown prone. dont install anything else onto the computer, limit access, and it will stay clean and fast. Our dell units were $399/op vs $1200-$1600 for an iMac.

I have an iMac at home, i much prefer something thats not all in one for the ops.

[stjames70]

Absolutely agree with you. Keep access limited and less viruses will infect your computer. But I will reiterate my preference in running Windows as a VM. You can get up and running much faster if you can simply clone a clean copy of an entire computer instead of buying/reinstalling a brand new machine. Since in our profession, time is money (and it absolutely is above all other factors), you don't want be bogged down calling an IT person, or fixing something yourself when you could be spending it trying to increase your practice's efficiency or seeing patients.

[carldowning]

STjames, do you have a preference for VM fusion vs parallels and if so why ?? getting ready to set up OD with a server configuration on Windows 7 and it seems that parallels has better performance stats than the Fusion. Thanks

[stjames70]

Can't speak for Parallels. I use Fusion because it updates easily, and I have found no issues with it running Windows 7. Performance will not be an issue since OD runs really well in our 2005 Dells running XP Pro. OD utilizes very little CPU and memory. It's amazingly elegant for all it can accomplish. That is why I begged Dr. Sparks to port it over to the MacOSX platform. Oh well, can't win them all.

[irfan]

how much RAM are you able to allot your VMs? I was tinkering with the idea of running VMs of windows 7 in a windows 7 environment but the VMs were only able to allocate 1GB. windows system image makes it very very simple to restore a dead pc, but i cant back up over network (home premium), and im afraid that a major hardware change would render the system image useless... so im looking into more flexible restore options. either running a VM or utilizing a better image restore system that is hardware independent or can deal with hardware changes.

[stjames70]

I am allotting 2gb. Are you using Fusion? The idea of VMs is that they are hardware agnostic. The virtualizing software is supposed to 'virtualize' certain hardware requirements dependent on your particular hardware. As long as your machine is fast enough, VMs do not suffer much of a penalty performance. I also don't understand the bit about not being able to perform a backup over network. I have never had a problem backing up from inside the virtual machine to any networked location, whether locally of over the net.
Perhaps you are talking about virtualization within a Microsoft OS? I can't speak for that setup as my main setup is Mac based. Your VM image should always work with your virtualization software. I would not run a virtual machine without something from VMWare or some other established virtualization software company. You run into support, upgrade and compatibility issues down the line. VMWare provides fairly inexpensive solutions, so it should not be a problem getting it into your boxes.

[irfan]

im not at the office but i think it was esxi that i was using to create the virtual machine, and it was having me choose how much RAM to allot, and i was limited to 1GB.

the backup over network issue- windows7 lets you create a system image for a quick restore of your windows installation - pretty nifty actually - but only lets you backup that image to a connected harddrive instead of a network location unless its a professional or enterprise edition (i have the home premium versions). the restore works great but if i had a major hardware change like a motherboard ive heard that the restore would not work...

[stjames70]

VM Ware Workstation 8 would be a better solution in you case than esxi. I looked into it, and esxi is a good product, but it is one that requires support since it is provided for free. It is not meant as a consumer end product. Esxi is a VM Ware product but I believe that it is not a product intended for individual users like us.

[Roy A Bloom]

anyone using an ipad2 as a workstation or dumb terminal with OD?

[babysilvertooth]

question about this " Once you have a 'master' copy of a Windows 7 machine (these will generally be under 16gb, so you can store a copy of your master in a thumb drive), all you have to do is to copy that 'master' copy into all your iMacs running VMWare fusion

when you try to make your VM machine with Win 7, do you run into registration problems? I have WinXP running on VMWare on my Mac, but wanted to do a clean WIn 7 (which I have on my FRont desk machine), but thought I needed a machine that was not in use for the OS. DOes my question make sense?

Thanks

[stjames70]

You should only run one virtual machine per computer.

You should not run WinXP when you are running Win7.

I do not understand what you mean by registration -- we have licenses to run up to 50 copies of Win7, so these VM copies all come up as Microsoft certified genuine Win7 machines which will self update properly.

Initial set up may cost you quite a bit of time, but once you are done, everything is pretty easy. Just try it. There is no better teacher than trial and error (and by the way, make sure you back up your database properly just in case you really do manage to brick your virtual machine -- unlikely, but you never know.....

Good luck -- and by the way, make sure you sign up with Open Dental customer support -- they are really great.

[babysilvertooth]

Thanks stjames...I don't have anything important on my current VM windows machine...I use it only to access open dental at the office, and files on the server that are shared by all workstations. But WIn 7 is much faster than the winXP machine that I virtualized.

HOw much space did you give to your VM?

Can I email you about setting up the VM?

Thanks for the help.

PS: I am on support for Open Dental, and I couldn't be happier.

[packets]

Really? Doesn't this post beg the question: What's the point of running MAC?
Sure you get some beautiful hardware (for a premium), but at the end of the day your still running Windows, just behind another layer of complication...and you will have all the same issues associated with introducing buggy device drivers into Windows for your imaging hardware (i.e., cameras, sensors, pans, scanners, etc.). If it's not too late, I suggest purchasing Windows machines and investing the savings into your server, securing those digital assets, and a creating a business recovery and continuity plan...then get to work making $$ to pay for the stuff and think about retirement!

[Roy A Bloom]

[quote="stjames70"]Excellent point. Our operatories are 'open' -- the computers can be exposed to some airborne particles. I was able to get screen

1) Once you have a 'master' copy of a Windows 7 machine (these will generally be under 16gb, so you can store a copy of your master in a thumb drive), all you have to do is to copy that 'master' copy into all your iMacs running VMWare fusion
2) The reason this is simpler, is that you don't have to install all your software again and again into multiple systems
3) Say one of your staff infects one of your workstations (God forbid they have access to your 'server') -- you can simply toss away your Virtual Machine in that workstation, and upload a clean, virus free 'master' and start anew in about the time it takes to copy a 16gb file



Are you using Acronis to get this mater copy of Win7 Pro as an ISO image?

[packets]

1) Once you have a 'master' copy of a Windows 7 machine (these will generally be under 16gb, so you can store a copy of your master in a thumb drive), all you have to do is to copy that 'master' copy into all your iMacs running VMWare fusion
2) The reason this is simpler, is that you don't have to install all your software again and again into multiple systems
3) Say one of your staff infects one of your workstations (God forbid they have access to your 'server') -- you can simply toss away your Virtual Machine in that workstation, and upload a clean, virus free 'master' and start anew in about the time it takes to copy a 16gb file

I believe in order to comply with the Windows product license you will still need to purchase a copy of Windows for each separate machine or virtual instance running on each machine...

http://techblissonline.com/windows-7-license-terms/
http://www.microsoft.com/About/Legal/EN ... fault.aspx

[babysilvertooth]

Really? Doesn't this post beg the question: What's the point of running MAC?
Sure you get some beautiful hardware (for a premium), but at the end of the day your still running Windows, just behind another layer of complication...and you will have all the same issues associated with introducing buggy device drivers into Windows for your imaging hardware (i.e., cameras, sensors, pans, scanners, etc.). If it's not too late, I suggest purchasing Windows machines and investing the savings into your server, securing those digital assets, and a creating a business recovery and continuity plan...then get to work making $$ to pay for the stuff and think about retirement!

But its so much easier to throw out a corrupted virtual machine and start clean......

[packets]

But its so much easier to throw out a corrupted virtual machine and start clean......

I agree about the ease of running a virtual machine, but there is a reason why software vendors only support specific installation/configurations (i.e., Windows)...the bloody edge becomes even more painful when your practice is literally hanging off the bloody edge (e.g., MAC running Windows in a virtual machine).
Don't get me wrong, the collective (and I'm sure OD) appreciate your pioneering spirit and hope similar installations work out all the issues and bugs (please post in this forum) before the rest of us arrive to where you've been for months or years! But, it does have its cost which we'll gladly permit others to pay. For many choosing OD is about savings and the awesome software.

[stjames70]

Since I am an ardent supporter of VMs, let me restate the obvious advantage of having a VM -- you can TRASH IT! anytime it annoys you and put in a clean copy.

I have worked with Open Dental for the last five years in a virtual environment. It is NOT cutting edge -- it's just smarter. Open Dental support does not even know they are servicing computers which are on a virtual environment. Also, as far as having a separate license for each workstation, yeah, that is right. We outright purchased 15 licenses for Win 7 so we could have it running at least that many instances.

If you are like me where total control of your network is of utmost importance, then really, Macs are really nice to use and maintain. Much easier to work with in my experience than Windows systems.

Anyway, my two cents worth......

[Justin Shafer]

You can always run Cross-Over office (wine) with OpenDental.

[stjames70]

I tried setting up a wine virtual machine a few years ago. It was quite difficult and not very stable. The latest iteration of Fusion 5.0 along with OS X 10.8.2 is exceptionally stable. I had two iMac workstations where the hard drives failed. Of course hard drive failure is bound to happen. As it were, I reinstalled Mac OS X on those machines, installed Fusion, and copied a clean virtual machine from a functioning workstation. All I had to do was rename the computer in the virtual machine and everything was up and going within two hours (most of the time was spent copying the VM to an external drive. It would have helped if I had an external SSD drive to speed things up, but oh well). I did not have to reinstall all the Windows applications, reset firewalls, or direct Open Dental to the main database. Dexis was up and running immediately. In short, I love virtual machines. I think they are the only reason why I never had to hire anyone to set up or manage our computer systems. VM Ware's commercial product just reduces the headaches in setting up and maintaining the virtual machines, and it is simple enough so that I don't have to spend countless hours putting things together. I would like to get in some dentistry while dealing with payroll, overhead, IT and all the other wonderful detractors to doing dentistry.

[stjames70]

Anyone see the new iMacs? I think those computers would be the ideal workstations for a dental office. When those particular iMacs run the course of their hardware life, you can plug in a Mac mini and reuse the computer as a monitor, the keyboard and the magic mouse (for infection control, you can purchase iSkins for the wireless keyboards plus you can stick any electrostatic plastic infection control sheets on the magic mouse -- they are still touch sensitive even with that cover on) We have three year old iMacs in which we plan to upgrade the memory on the cheap. When that hardware really runs out its course, we will just buy Mac minis and reuse the iMacs as I described above.

[babysilvertooth]

I tried setting up a wine virtual machine a few years ago. It was quite difficult and not very stable. The latest iteration of Fusion 5.0 along with OS X 10.8.2 is exceptionally stable. I had two iMac workstations where the hard drives failed. Of course hard drive failure is bound to happen. As it were, I reinstalled Mac OS X on those machines, installed Fusion, and copied a clean virtual machine from a functioning workstation. All I had to do was rename the computer in the virtual machine and everything was up and going within two hours (most of the time was spent copying the VM to an external drive. It would have helped if I had an external SSD drive to speed things up, but oh well). I did not have to reinstall all the Windows applications, reset firewalls, or direct Open Dental to the main database. Dexis was up and running immediately. In short, I love virtual machines. I think they are the only reason why I never had to hire anyone to set up or manage our computer systems. VM Ware's commercial product just reduces the headaches in setting up and maintaining the virtual machines, and it is simple enough so that I don't have to spend countless hours putting things together. I would like to get in some dentistry while dealing with payroll, overhead, IT and all the other wonderful detractors to doing dentistry.

When you copied a functioning workstation, was it a PC or a VM on a Mac?

I have a windows XP running very slowly on my Mac, and wanted a clean install, but not sure how to do it.

[stjames70]

I think I posted a personal answer to your query, but to answer your question, I would start with a scratch copy of XP Pro by installing it on a new VM. Then I would only install the core programs necessary to run your main computer or your workstation. I forgot to ask, did you allocate enough memory or cores to your VM? (If you are using Fusion) Then I would delete or hide the Internet Explorer icon and any other email applications from the VM. This would not prevent a virus from infecting your VM, but it would surely cut the risk severely. Did I tell you that if you are running antivirus software you will also slow down your machine to a crawl? My suggestion is for you to keep a clean VM without antivirus software. In case it does get infected, junk it and boot up a new VM.